Dr. Garry P. Nolan recently co-authored a paper, which in part was about his analysis of unusual material from a 1977 incident which happened in Council Bluffs, Iowa, USA; and appeared in the peer-reviewed Journal “Progress in Aerospace Sciences.” After the paper was published, he was recently interviewed by Marwa EIDiwiny, on the Soft Robotics Podcast. Here are my notes from that interview. They are not intended to be a transcript of the whole podcast, but key points that I picked up; particularly information of which I was not previously aware.
|Garry P. Nolan|
Marwa: What’s the story here?
Garry: About a decade ago, there was a report on the Internet about a small mummy, which some people thought was an alien. I thought I could do genetics and determine whether it was human or other. I published a paper stating that the mummy was human (1.) The UFO community didn’t like that. It was about doing good science. It brought me to the attention of people in the government. “…help them to study individuals who they had claimed they had got close to supposed craft.” (2.) Analysing some of these individuals. They were all intelligence presonnel or DoD aircrew, pilots etc. Some of them related to the Nimitz incident. Then government says you can look at MRIs and do blood work.
“We also have these materials that supposedly some of these craft have left behind. What would you do with them if we gave you some of them, or we asked you to help with some of them?”
I had some instruments in my lab, so did that and published a paper. (3.)
M: Were you afraid to do that work?
G: Not afraid. Afraid what some of my colleagues might say. I said the data is real. You can only argue about the interpretation.
“Some of the materials that we have measured have anomalous isotopic ratios. The isotopes in one of these examples, and the data has to be reproduced by others, has incorrect magnesium isotopic ratios. So, magnesium has three isotopes, 24, 25 and 26. 24 is about 80%, and then there is 11 and 9% or 9 and 11 for 25 and 26. That’s what you would find, pretty much what you would find anywhere on Earth. And pretty much what you would find on Mars if you were to go and collect magnesium on Mars, and if you were to go out to the Oort cloud it would be pretty much about the same ratios.
So, the ratios of one of these samples that we got from an unusual observation of an object is, something like 60%, 20% and 10%. (4.) Completely off normal. So, that’s not proof of anything right, that’s just data. You have to ask the question, who would change the ratios?Right, because if you make the assumption, and it is an assumption , that there’s nothing in the immediate solar system that should have such anomalous ratios.
Ok, so that means it was potentially made somehow, by somebody. Why would you do that? The questions is not so much did it happen? The question that is more important is why would you do that?”
We don’t undersatnd why you would change isotopic ratios. What industrial process would change them? People in government have speculated that the materials might be downstream of a propulsion system.
M; How sure are you that the material comes from a UFO?
G: We get offerings from people. Need a good sense of chain of custody. In case of the magnesium, it came from Ubatuba, Brazil. Nolan then describes the Council Bluffs incident (5.) Terrestrial but each sub-sample is different in terms of elements – incompletely mixed together material. I was contacted by a person whose mother saw an object which dropped molten metal. He is sending a sample to me.
The Department of Defence has created an office to collect this type of information (6.) Money is coming to the table. I will be applying for some of it. Analysis of materials so far has come out of my own pocket – about $70,000. Since the paper was published, I now have students from Stanford and Harvard willing to help. You need to talk about it in a credible way. Collect the data. Ask what can we learn from these materials?
M: What has been the most interesting?
G: Isotopic ratios probably the most interesting. When the magnesium from Ubatuba happened. Would have been expensive to alter isotopic ratios. There are some companies who sell milligram sized samples for tens of thousands of dollars with altered ratios. Stuff we have is in pounds. Would have cost millions of dollars to create. There is another material – I have some pieces of it, bismuth-magnesium (7) layered in small sized layers. The open question is, was it manufactured, or a product of standard smelting? I don’t know. I’ve looked at that material. It is layered in an interesting way and each of the layers is made of a different element. That doesn’t sound like something you would find in a smelting pot.
“I don’t know what these things are but now the office is funded, basically, I’m hoping to get access to some of the other materials that are claimed to be owned by the government, to take a look at it. Interestingly, it’s not just the US government that has these things. Right, there’s actually some stories coming out of China, that the Chinese; some of the Chinese aircraft carriers are seeing something. There’s stories coming out of Russia. There’s a very good story out of, two stories, out of both India and Iran, about things that have been seen. So, again seen by the air forces of those respective countries. So, it’s not just Americancentric. I know France for instance, has a very big program on a study of these things.”
It’s world-wide. What they are, I don’t know. Bring the right kinds of minds and either we will prove it is something natural. If it is something from out there, why wouldn’t you want to know this?
M: Materials are not 100% of the picture?
G: We are getting only a small piece of the picture. What don’t we know? I want to know more. There are other objects supposedly. I always wonder if I’m being fed a hoax? I would like to get hold of something contemporaneous, recent, where the story is new (8.) The object we can get hold of almost immediately. Bring forensic resources to understand it. So called Tic tacs – need a very large amount of energy to do what they do. Could the object have access to unconventional physics? How are they doing it? Discusses “warp bubbles.”
M: Materials and behaviours?
G: I am a big reader of science-fiction.. Materials we see ejected could be some form of propulsion. Others say that the bismuth-magnesium material is a waveguide. We are only at the beginning of understanding physics. I look at isotopes – e.g. Lithium is used in psychiatry for treating mental illness.We could look at isotopes differently.
M: Are we fully aware of the Russian and Chinese technology?
G: Elizondo, Mellon and Davis are knowledgable about tech. Russia and China are studying it too. Could be the beginning of a new arms race to understand this tech. We need open access to information – then no-one has the upper hand. Get information out in a safe and credible way. Make it respectable to ask the question. Then give people data. Proving the data is real, is the first step.
M: We speculate where it comes from. Why designed in that way? Can we reverse engineer?
G: Speculate that the layered Bismuth-magnesium sample is somehow involved in propulsion. Maybe we can make it. Test it with tetrahertz waves. Look at current physics, make different assumptions. In my lab work we ask the question what is the inevitable data needed? Imagine a science-fiction level instrument, then back track to the practical level. Start with the impossible and reverse engineer to make a practical level one.
M: What is material – intelligent design?
G: Clearly something which has an understanding of physics that we don’t. Friend of mine worked for the CIA in technology acquisition. Would sometimes come across Russian technology that he didn’t understand. Russian physicists started from different assumptions. Eventually CIA worked it out.
One of the instruments that we are trying to build in my lab is an atomic imaging scope. See position of every atom. There is no such instrument today that does that. My primary reason for using that, is biology but it will also do materials analysis. Form equals function.
M: What other questions do you want to answer?
G: Frankly, who made it? Then what is the goal or agenda? Goal leads to function leads to materials needed. Range of questions opened up. If these things are real what does it imply for religious aspects?
M: The people who visited your office – UFO/ET?
G: “They didn’t come to me saying these were ETs or those were UFOs. They came saying we have these individuals who were harmed. We know, and everyone tells us that you have made the best blood analysis systems currenlty used in the world. What can you tell us about their blood? Or what can your diagnostic instrumentation tell us about what happened to these people? “
Might tell us what the energy involved is, and a safe range to approach it. I had looked at all the medical files made available to me. I was convinced the data was real, but didn’t know what conclusions could I make?
I always ask myself, am I being fooled? Is someone trying to discredit this area of work? Need to go through the peer-review process.
M: Why is academia not open minded?
G: Made fun of for years. Ancient Astronauts show is silly. People are afraid of being shamed. I don’t care what other people think of me, if I’m right. Mindsets are changing.
M: Other possibilities which would help?
G: Advance science to aspire to another level of physics. Maybe there’s an energy we can use. I’m an optimist. I’m 61. I don’t expect that in the next 20 years we will fully understand this. I think others will make the big discoveries. I see potential for humanity at large.
M: Life changing advice?
G: Best advice is don’t try to convince anyone of a conclusion. Publish it if you can. Set up study groups at a professional level. The Aeronautical and aerospace community – 50,000 people, held a four hour symposium (9) and set up a study group. Could be an aviation hazard. I’m working to try and get the biology community to set up a study group.
M: Final words?
G: Thanks the audience. If anyone has any materials let me know.
Notes on notes:
(1) Bhattacharys, S. et al. 2018. “Whole-genome sequencing of Atacama skelton shows novel mutations linked with dysplasia.” Genome Research, online 7 April 2018.
(2) For an examination of Garry Nolan’s work in this area, see my blog post reporting on three of his previous interviews.
(3) Garry P. Nolan; Jacques F. Vallee; Sizan, Jian; Larry G. Lemke. 2021. “Improved Instrumental Techniques Including Isoptopic Analysis, Applicable to the Charactrization of Unusual Materials with Potential Relevance to Aerospace Forensics.” Progress in Aerospace Sciences, volume 128, January 2022.
(4) The sample being discusssed here, was from the 1957 Ubatuba, Brazil incident. Further details may be read in a previous post.
(5) The Council Bluffs, Ohio incident is well described in the 2022 Nolan et al paper, see note (3) above.
(6) This is the Airborne Object Identification and Management Synchronization Group. See previous post here.
(7) In my catalogue titled “Preliminary Catalogue of Analysis of Alleged “Fragments” Reportedly Associated with Sightings of Unidentified Aerial Phenomena,” the latest case is dated 2014.
(8) Commonly refered to as “Arts parts.” For further information click here.
(9) At an August 2021 symposium, held by the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics (AIAA), there was a four hour panel titled “Advocating for Scientific Study of Unidentified Aerial Phenomena – Technical Perspective with Focus on Aviation Safety.”